Breeding: For Color

Krista · 2023-03-29T13:23:18+00:00

Teddahlia (starting a new discussion for this) Thank you for answering all of my questions about Giraffe. Are there other dahlias that have the same lateral...

Justafewdahlias

Teddahlia oh wow! How interesting, I always assumed open pollination =loads more seeds but not the case here. Well in that case I guess my 2 seeds from one plant I should be satisfied with, tbd if any actually germinate and grow. But next year I will use the Pom pollen and not invest so much effort into trying to get them to make seeds.

Bessie

Teddahlia before the gopher started taking out the dahlias ( in mid August I think), I observed that Hollyhill Snowdrop only had a few (3-5) stigmas. I've noticed that later in the summer more stigmas are produced in most all my Dahlias. Another thought to ponder... In the summer when I'm hand pollinating, I don't always remove all the petals off the flower, which is typical when hand pollinating. I hypothesize that leaving some petals facilitates a bit of mechanical protection from the sun and drying winds, which in theory would give the pollen a better opportunity to be viable longer and fertilize.
This waterlilly is one of two Dahlias blooming in my yard. The color is much softer peachy color than this photo taken in early July. The other Dahlia still blooming is Hollyhill Serenity. I've been playing Bee with the two waterlillies, since they are on opposite sides of the yard. Pollinating in December... I'm either very optimistic, a little crazy with too much time on my hands, or both.

Teddahlia

" I hypothesize that leaving some petals facilitates a bit of mechanical protection from the sun and drying winds, which in theory would give the pollen a better opportunity to be viable longer and fertilize." The organza bag here covers the mother pod and petals just make taking it off and on more difficult. Margaret gets lots of seeds but I am sworn to secrecy about such things.
Pollinating is actually sort of interesting. In China they hand pollinate an acre or two of Asian pears using pollen collected from one tree of a different variety grown near the house. They extend the pollen using flour and use chicken feathers to do the actual pollinating. Life would be easy if that all worked for dahlias.

Teddahlia

Margaret's picture of a 2022 seedling. We brought this one into the kitchen this year and placed it on the counter where it certainly caught your attention. It is really bright colors.

bloomhjelm

Teddahlia Delicious color, like marmalade.

blown_dry

Teddahlia Lovely! I like dahlas that glow.

Teddahlia

This time of year pictures look 50% better than in the height of the dahlia season. I do not know how she got this one to look that good as it does not have pluperfect form. It is it's color that makes you put on the sunglasses to look at it. And it is one of those that looks better in the vase the next day as the colors "bleed" ( my theory is that the vacuoles in the pigment cells burst making for more intense color).

Teddahlia

Valda: Poms were well bred in the 1930s and this 1941 flower is as nice as it's picture. It still wins in shows despite being a bit too large for it's pom classification. I like it's color.

Teddahlia

This red waterlily is Seedling 2311 and the picture was taken in portrait mode. 2311 is a seedling of our "old reliable" private flower(red) 17102, We like 17102 for numerous reasons and two of them were that it grew tall at 6 feet and the flowers were well cupped. We have used it for breeding since 2018 and several nice flowers have resulted. 2311 seedling is 6 generations of our breeding. I believe I saved some seeds from it this year.

calico20hill

Teddahlia I really really would like a 6' tall one of these!

Teddahlia

2311 is only about 5 feet tall. Speaking of color, I got to thinking why it is red "all over". Dahlias have color on the front and reverse of the floret. Salish Twilight Girl has lavender on the front and purple on the reverse.
HH Golden glow has streaky red on the reverse. But 2311 seems to have the same red color on the front and back of the florets .

HH Golden Glow

KitCMC

Teddahlia a work of art

bloomhjelm

It seems to me that one of the most attractive features of cupping dahlias is the striations and pinstriping on the petal reverse as well as the possible variation of color on the reverse.

I haven't seen any fall or winter sales list particularly new and rare waterlilies yet. I think they are saving them for spring sales.

A very very small waterlily which also cups would be an amazing thing and I hope to see it in future seasons.

Teddahlia

I should not post this picture of a miniature waterlily seedling that cups well. My rule is I try to wait until the second year to post pictures of seedlings. It is about 3 inches in diameter, not one of those really small ones.

Laia

Teddahlia Allison of Kale Lane was just trying to figure out what seed makers to add to her miniature waterlily seed bed, as her abundant planting of several miniature varieties (Etoile De Wensel, Suitzus Julie, Sandia Flirt) yielded her no seed this year. Exciting to see your seedling, thanks for the early preview! 😁

Teddahlia

I shall instruct Margaret to hand cross this small WL seedling with another small one. I should re-phrase that to "politely ask" as she is in charge of what is crossed with what and my suggestions , if not waterlilies are generally ignored.

bloomhjelm

I was trying to find a post somewhere here that I thought said white dahlias are more likely to produce seedlings of any color, than a colored dahlia. Did I make that up, or did I remember that correctly?

Krista

bloomhjelm I wonder if this might be the comment you’re thinking of?

Teddahlia Breeding dahlias for color is akin to an artist who is limited to only a very few tubes of paint. Dahlias have two pigment groups. Tube one is white. Tube two is purple(nobody believes me but it is true) How the hell can you get all the different colors from these two pigments? As it turns out, the white pigment can have versions that include the yellows. So let's add a yellow tube for the yellows. The purple tube has most of it's color changed from purple to red when it is put on the canvas. Under specific conditions it will stay purple. The specific conditions are controlled by a version of the white pigment that has the ability to make the purple remain as purple. Most of the versions of the white pigment make the purple pigment red, but just a few allow it to stay purple. Perhaps we need another tube for the white that allows purple to remain purple. I am going to quit here as you can see that it is almost impossible to control the variables to get certain colors while other colors are very common.
Strategy for breeding the color of dahlias: This is so simple that you may not even believe me. It is the universal rule for breeding dahlias. Control the pollination and cross two dahlias of the same color together and you will get many seedlings in that color. Breed like to like to get like. . You will never get all the seedlings to be the same color but you increase the odds. Can you you use your knowledge to of the chemistry of color to help you in your quest? Yes, for example you could cross a white flower known to produce purple seedlings with either a purple flower or a red flower knowing that it will produce some purple seedlings. What is easier?: breeding like to like and you do not need to know why it works or using your knowledge to produce some colored flowers based on your knowledge of the chemical pigments. Even for the chemist it would always be easier to breed like to like to get like.

bloomhjelm

Krista I did re-read that comment but it wasn't the comment I am thinking of. It might not even be on this forum honestly. I thought I read that white dahlias, because they may be white due to suppression of other colors which are still genetically present, may produce seedlings of many colors.

Krista

bloomhjelm Oh I hope you can find that info, I’d love to read it too. I was very interested in Ted’s comment back when he posted it and got excited when you resurfaced a discussion on breeding with whites!

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