Breeding: For Color

Krista · 2023-03-29T13:23:18+00:00

Teddahlia (starting a new discussion for this) Thank you for answering all of my questions about Giraffe. Are there other dahlias that have the same lateral...

Teddahlia

Valda: Poms were well bred in the 1930s and this 1941 flower is as nice as it's picture. It still wins in shows despite being a bit too large for it's pom classification. I like it's color.

Teddahlia

This red waterlily is Seedling 2311 and the picture was taken in portrait mode. 2311 is a seedling of our "old reliable" private flower(red) 17102, We like 17102 for numerous reasons and two of them were that it grew tall at 6 feet and the flowers were well cupped. We have used it for breeding since 2018 and several nice flowers have resulted. 2311 seedling is 6 generations of our breeding. I believe I saved some seeds from it this year.

calico20hill

Teddahlia I really really would like a 6' tall one of these!

Teddahlia

2311 is only about 5 feet tall. Speaking of color, I got to thinking why it is red "all over". Dahlias have color on the front and reverse of the floret. Salish Twilight Girl has lavender on the front and purple on the reverse.
HH Golden glow has streaky red on the reverse. But 2311 seems to have the same red color on the front and back of the florets .

HH Golden Glow

KitCMC

Teddahlia a work of art

bloomhjelm

It seems to me that one of the most attractive features of cupping dahlias is the striations and pinstriping on the petal reverse as well as the possible variation of color on the reverse.

I haven't seen any fall or winter sales list particularly new and rare waterlilies yet. I think they are saving them for spring sales.

A very very small waterlily which also cups would be an amazing thing and I hope to see it in future seasons.

Teddahlia

I should not post this picture of a miniature waterlily seedling that cups well. My rule is I try to wait until the second year to post pictures of seedlings. It is about 3 inches in diameter, not one of those really small ones.

Laia

Teddahlia Allison of Kale Lane was just trying to figure out what seed makers to add to her miniature waterlily seed bed, as her abundant planting of several miniature varieties (Etoile De Wensel, Suitzus Julie, Sandia Flirt) yielded her no seed this year. Exciting to see your seedling, thanks for the early preview! 😁

Teddahlia

I shall instruct Margaret to hand cross this small WL seedling with another small one. I should re-phrase that to "politely ask" as she is in charge of what is crossed with what and my suggestions , if not waterlilies are generally ignored.

bloomhjelm

I was trying to find a post somewhere here that I thought said white dahlias are more likely to produce seedlings of any color, than a colored dahlia. Did I make that up, or did I remember that correctly?

Krista

bloomhjelm I wonder if this might be the comment you’re thinking of?

Teddahlia Breeding dahlias for color is akin to an artist who is limited to only a very few tubes of paint. Dahlias have two pigment groups. Tube one is white. Tube two is purple(nobody believes me but it is true) How the hell can you get all the different colors from these two pigments? As it turns out, the white pigment can have versions that include the yellows. So let's add a yellow tube for the yellows. The purple tube has most of it's color changed from purple to red when it is put on the canvas. Under specific conditions it will stay purple. The specific conditions are controlled by a version of the white pigment that has the ability to make the purple remain as purple. Most of the versions of the white pigment make the purple pigment red, but just a few allow it to stay purple. Perhaps we need another tube for the white that allows purple to remain purple. I am going to quit here as you can see that it is almost impossible to control the variables to get certain colors while other colors are very common.
Strategy for breeding the color of dahlias: This is so simple that you may not even believe me. It is the universal rule for breeding dahlias. Control the pollination and cross two dahlias of the same color together and you will get many seedlings in that color. Breed like to like to get like. . You will never get all the seedlings to be the same color but you increase the odds. Can you you use your knowledge to of the chemistry of color to help you in your quest? Yes, for example you could cross a white flower known to produce purple seedlings with either a purple flower or a red flower knowing that it will produce some purple seedlings. What is easier?: breeding like to like and you do not need to know why it works or using your knowledge to produce some colored flowers based on your knowledge of the chemical pigments. Even for the chemist it would always be easier to breed like to like to get like.

bloomhjelm

Krista I did re-read that comment but it wasn't the comment I am thinking of. It might not even be on this forum honestly. I thought I read that white dahlias, because they may be white due to suppression of other colors which are still genetically present, may produce seedlings of many colors.

Krista

bloomhjelm Oh I hope you can find that info, I’d love to read it too. I was very interested in Ted’s comment back when he posted it and got excited when you resurfaced a discussion on breeding with whites!

Teddahlia

White is an enigma for many people. All dahlias are white but how is that possible? White is precursor pigment and if it does not evolve into another color the flower remains white. Yellow is a white with an added molecule and it is yellow. Red is white with several chemicals added and the flower is either red or purple depending on whether the white was one version or another.
Genetically, if the chemical sequence from white to red is broken by a gene the flower remains white. My biochemist friend says there are at least 5 chemical steps to make red pigment. If a gene stops the process at any of the 5 steps the flower is white. But what if you "fix" the lost step by adding back the gene? Then the flower goes through all 5 steps to red. So a white flower can have all the colors in it's seedlings if it gets some help from the pollen parent that fixes the step that was stopped by the bad gene.
Breeding a white flower to a white flower to get a white flower has a one out of 5 chance the two flowers are white for the same reason. If they are both that one in five version, all the seedlings will be white.
It is simple when you realize that there are only white dahlias and that should be re-stated to say all dahlias start out white and some get some chemicals added to them to make different colors.

bloomhjelm

Teddahlia This is exactly the info I needed and how it needed to be phrased. Thanks again for the wisdom.

LoriDee

Teddahlia I totally agree about the bronze....they look orange to me & I was an art major 😂

Teddahlia

If Bronze were eliminated, I would be very happy and almost no one would notice. Ever since I became a senior judge, I have been color classifying dahlias for color. Of the hundreds and probably the thousands of classifications I have done, there may have been only one or two that were bronze. And since you are on a team that agrees on such things, another person proposed the bronze color and was adamant about it. I could have held my ground and called for a duel to decide the issue and the dead person would be buried in a bronze casket.

Teddahlia

Not much chance a dahlia will match the 2025 Pantone color of the year.

calico20hill

So Ted, what is the Hollyhill color of the year going to be?

Teddahlia

This is a "Margaret likes" color. It could be described as pink, lavender or purple. I have seen versions of this flower that are all of these colors.

Krista

Teddahlia Ooo la la!

KitCMC

Teddahlia is it similar to Lavender Perfection? I love that color.

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