Breeding: For Color

Krista

Teddahlia (starting a new discussion for this) Thank you for answering all of my questions about Giraffe. Are there other dahlias that have the same lateral color pattern that are still in existence? And can specific color patterns like this be bred for with intention?

Teddahlia

As breeder first we can identify a trait like this and then see how prevalent it is in the seedlings. First we should define the trait and I believe it is a gene that controls the color pattern on the reverse of dahlia floret. Dahlias quite certainly have the capability to have different color patterns on the front and reverse of the floret. This pattern of horizontal stripes is very interesting especially if the florets twist enough that you can see the reverse of the petal. It appears to be caused by the interruption of the formation of anthocyanin in a specific on and off pattern. I have seen numerous examples of the horizontal pigment stripes in open center dahlias and specifically orchid dahlia. Roland Verrone had the trait in at least one of his flowers. Your picture of shows it in that flower. Giraffe is more or less a fully double dahlia and the seedling of Giraffe called Tahoma Giraffe was a larger flower and was fully double. I have not been able to locate a picture of it. There are two basic levels of dahlia breeding: (1) you plants seeds from flower with the traits you like and see what you get, If something appears in the seedlings and you like it you keep it and your breeding experiment is over. (2) the more advanced breeder defines the perfect flower that he wants to breed and works through many generations of breeding to achieve that flower. Most breeders are in between (1) and (2) and are satisfied with just about any shape or form of the flower as long as it is pretty and grows well.

Krista

Teddahlia Ohhh interesting that this is most prevalent in open-centered forms. Do some traits generally come from seed parents and others from pollen parents or does that not really apply to dahlias, given their genetic makeup? When breeding dahlias with related genetics and traits (say giraffe with pink giraffe, or Cornel and Caitlin's Joy) is there any way to possibly have an idea of what types of traits seedlings from these matches might produce? Or could you theoretically end up with any form and color found in dahlias?

Teddahlia

Mama and Papa contribute an equal share of the genes. "Or could you theoretically end up with any form and color found in dahlias?" Form is really sensitive to outcrossing with different forms. People have been breeding them for many decades and here you come adding the wrong set of form genes and the whole look will be gone. Color is harder to screw up as most colors are at least pretty, even it they are the wrong ones. Will a trait transfer to the seedling in one generation or do you have to do some inbreeding to get that trait? That one is a tough question to answer.

Krista

Teddahlia Oh wow, I was imagining traits would have different weights depending on seed or pollen contributors, coooool! Form genes (minor brain implosion), I am going to have to take off down some rabbit holes and collect myself before coming back. I have one billion questions right now and this won't be very fun for you if I don't regroup first. 😂 But ... just speaking in possibilities, could a waterlily be borne from crossbreeding a ball and an incurved cactus, say?

Krista

Teddahlia Mama and Papa contribute an equal share of the genes.

Are there variables other than the ability to produce seed at all that weigh into which varieties you choose to provide the pollen and which you choose to develop the seed?

Teddahlia

Let's say that the breeders of ball dahlias took 50 years to concentrate several different genes that cause the floret to roll enough for the flower to be a ball dahlia. Another set of breeders took 50 years to have the florets roll up the opposite way(cactus) and they are long and skinny. So now you come along and in one generation expect the genes from those two types to create another form that breeders took 50 years to create called a waterlily. A waterlily has very wide florets and neither of the parents have wide florets. A waterlily has florets that cup upwards and where is that trait in the parents? A waterlily has only 7 rows of florets and your seed parents have many, many more rows that would have to disappear. You can see where this is going. Form in dahlias is result of many generations of breeding that concentrates the genes needed for that form. Color breeding is actually easier in that there are fewer colors and fewer genes to manipulate. Cut flower breeders are not finicky much about form as long as the flower does not have an open pollen center. A breeder of only color could use just about any of the fully double forms and if just color and a closed center is the goal, lots of results can be made in one or two generations. We are not primarily color breeders but within the form types we breed, we do breed for colors.

Bessie

Teddahlia thank you for sharing your expertise! Your words of wisdom and knowledge helps to keep me focused on realistic experiments when thinking about hybridizing dahlias.

SteveM

Teddahlia In recent history it has been dahlia societies (e.g. ADS) that have been the main reason new dahlia forms have not been developed. Dahlia societies promote the perfection of form but do not promote the creation of new forms. Without the blessing of ADS; there has been very little progress in the creation/acceptance of new dahlia forms during the last 50 years. Now, with the internet and the popularity of dahlia diversity, I expect to see a boom in new dahlia forms during the next 50 years.

Krista

Teddahlia Ok yes! Yes, this answers many other questions. Thank you! I’m better understanding the method to achieving desired form. Perfection doesn’t necessarily just magically happen which admittedly, I wasn’t sure wasn’t the case before. In so many instance I’ve read “anything” being possible due to octoploidiness that I wasn’t sure where to begin my brain thoughts on where the method to the madness began and ended. Of course it comes from generations of genetics and artfully selecting parents, which really reinforces how specialized and spectacular hybridizing is when done successfully. I’m in awe!

Teddahlia

Plant breeding is a very ancient activity and has been done ever since man started to grow plants. Always select the better plants and build upon your selections . I was going to try to breed some potatoes, but often the seedlings are poisonous. Apples take many years to get the fruit and who has that much time? Dahlias are octoploid and we can blame our lack of success on that. Or, we can achieve unbelievable results because they are octoploid.

Teddahlia

Purple is the color that has caused humans to go crazy over the millenia. It was reserved for royalty in ancient times and you were arrested if you wore purple. In dahlias there has always been a cult of breeders who want to breed purple dahlias. Wayne Shantz and Wayne Holland (professional plant breeder) and Gordie Leroux(Kenora) all were chasing purple dahlias. I will stretch this story out for numerous posts and will say the we too really want to breed purple but are not as fixated as those old farts were.

Krista

Teddahlia I believe I’ve read that Purple Joy is high on your list of purple dahlias, I’m really looking forward to hearing more about this!

Teddahlia

More about Purple Joy later. Gordon Henry Leroux of Kenora Dahlias died of Parkinson's disease at the age of about 71 in 2007. He was one of the most famous dahlia breeders of his time. There are so many stories about him and breeding dahlias, I could write a couple of pages from just what I know. In 2004 the ADS National Dahlia show was held in the Seattle area. Margaret and attended as tourists and I wanted to take pictures. I did not sign up to judge and wanted to used the time of the judges meeting (about 45 minutes) to shoot pictures of the staged dahlia entries. I started shooting some shots and noticed an elderly man and then noticed it was Gordie Leroux. I am not shy and I introduced myself and did not take another picture. He was was willing to talk and I was willing to ask questions. This story could go on and on concerning all the things we discussed about breeding dahlias but for this thread there is but one thing: He told me that his unfulfilled breeding goal was to breed a giant or large purple semi cactus(or even cactus) that he wanted to name for his wife Jeanie. He had been trying for years without success and listed several of the flowers he had used as seed parents without success. To be continued.

todgor

Teddahlia

Was Clearview Leroux named in honor of this purple semi-cactus goal?

https://lobaughsdahlias.com/product/clearview-leroux-a-2023-introduction/

SteveM

Teddahlia Was it Gordon who grew his seedlings in a rather small yard and planted his first-year seedlings about 2" apart? There are a lot of great Kenora varieties - Kenora Fireball was one of my favorites.

Teddahlia

Clearview Leroux is the surprise ending that is no longer a surprise. There is lots more to the story despite the revelation of the end of the story.

todgor

Teddahlia

Sorry Ted I didn't see you were going there! I went on the search engine in response to your comment and it popped up

Krista

Teddahlia todgor No harm done, I’m still on the edge of my seat for the meat of the story. I’ve read snippets about the origin of Clearview Leroux‘s name hinted at on various social media outlets, but the details continue to be a mystery to me!

Teddahlia

I get different stories about Gordie's seedlings but he grew according to Dick Parshall about 2000 per year. However in his last year of growing while fighting Parkinsons I was told then(how does one remember minutia from 2005? ) that he grew over 2500. That was the year we grew 2200. The word in that year was that he left them in the small pots when he planted them in the ground. That was sacrilegious to us as we had never heard of planting plastic pots; what fool would do that?

Now we are switching to many more plastic pots grown in the ground. Best new method since sliced bread.

Krista

Teddahlia Wow, I’d never have guessed the practice of sink pots was new on the PNW scene as recently as 2005!

MissyWeitzel

Teddahlia my husband has Parkinson's. It's a cruel disease that takes away a little more physical and mental ability every day. It absolutely blows my mind that Leroux managed to start, plant, and tend to 2500 seedlings in later stages of PD!
Anyway, I have Clearview Leroux on order and I will look forward to seeing the big purple cactus bloom even more now!