Breeding: For Color

Krista · 2023-03-29T13:23:18+00:00

Teddahlia (starting a new discussion for this) Thank you for answering all of my questions about Giraffe. Are there other dahlias that have the same lateral...

SteveM

Teddahlia In recent history it has been dahlia societies (e.g. ADS) that have been the main reason new dahlia forms have not been developed. Dahlia societies promote the perfection of form but do not promote the creation of new forms. Without the blessing of ADS; there has been very little progress in the creation/acceptance of new dahlia forms during the last 50 years. Now, with the internet and the popularity of dahlia diversity, I expect to see a boom in new dahlia forms during the next 50 years.

Krista

Teddahlia Ok yes! Yes, this answers many other questions. Thank you! I’m better understanding the method to achieving desired form. Perfection doesn’t necessarily just magically happen which admittedly, I wasn’t sure wasn’t the case before. In so many instance I’ve read “anything” being possible due to octoploidiness that I wasn’t sure where to begin my brain thoughts on where the method to the madness began and ended. Of course it comes from generations of genetics and artfully selecting parents, which really reinforces how specialized and spectacular hybridizing is when done successfully. I’m in awe!

Teddahlia

Plant breeding is a very ancient activity and has been done ever since man started to grow plants. Always select the better plants and build upon your selections . I was going to try to breed some potatoes, but often the seedlings are poisonous. Apples take many years to get the fruit and who has that much time? Dahlias are octoploid and we can blame our lack of success on that. Or, we can achieve unbelievable results because they are octoploid.

Teddahlia

Purple is the color that has caused humans to go crazy over the millenia. It was reserved for royalty in ancient times and you were arrested if you wore purple. In dahlias there has always been a cult of breeders who want to breed purple dahlias. Wayne Shantz and Wayne Holland (professional plant breeder) and Gordie Leroux(Kenora) all were chasing purple dahlias. I will stretch this story out for numerous posts and will say the we too really want to breed purple but are not as fixated as those old farts were.

Krista

Teddahlia I believe I’ve read that Purple Joy is high on your list of purple dahlias, I’m really looking forward to hearing more about this!

Teddahlia

More about Purple Joy later. Gordon Henry Leroux of Kenora Dahlias died of Parkinson's disease at the age of about 71 in 2007. He was one of the most famous dahlia breeders of his time. There are so many stories about him and breeding dahlias, I could write a couple of pages from just what I know. In 2004 the ADS National Dahlia show was held in the Seattle area. Margaret and attended as tourists and I wanted to take pictures. I did not sign up to judge and wanted to used the time of the judges meeting (about 45 minutes) to shoot pictures of the staged dahlia entries. I started shooting some shots and noticed an elderly man and then noticed it was Gordie Leroux. I am not shy and I introduced myself and did not take another picture. He was was willing to talk and I was willing to ask questions. This story could go on and on concerning all the things we discussed about breeding dahlias but for this thread there is but one thing: He told me that his unfulfilled breeding goal was to breed a giant or large purple semi cactus(or even cactus) that he wanted to name for his wife Jeanie. He had been trying for years without success and listed several of the flowers he had used as seed parents without success. To be continued.

todgor

Teddahlia

Was Clearview Leroux named in honor of this purple semi-cactus goal?

https://lobaughsdahlias.com/product/clearview-leroux-a-2023-introduction/

SteveM

Teddahlia Was it Gordon who grew his seedlings in a rather small yard and planted his first-year seedlings about 2" apart? There are a lot of great Kenora varieties - Kenora Fireball was one of my favorites.

Teddahlia

Clearview Leroux is the surprise ending that is no longer a surprise. There is lots more to the story despite the revelation of the end of the story.

todgor

Teddahlia

Sorry Ted I didn't see you were going there! I went on the search engine in response to your comment and it popped up

Krista

Teddahlia todgor No harm done, I’m still on the edge of my seat for the meat of the story. I’ve read snippets about the origin of Clearview Leroux‘s name hinted at on various social media outlets, but the details continue to be a mystery to me!

Teddahlia

I get different stories about Gordie's seedlings but he grew according to Dick Parshall about 2000 per year. However in his last year of growing while fighting Parkinsons I was told then(how does one remember minutia from 2005? ) that he grew over 2500. That was the year we grew 2200. The word in that year was that he left them in the small pots when he planted them in the ground. That was sacrilegious to us as we had never heard of planting plastic pots; what fool would do that?

Now we are switching to many more plastic pots grown in the ground. Best new method since sliced bread.

Krista

Teddahlia Wow, I’d never have guessed the practice of sink pots was new on the PNW scene as recently as 2005!

MissyWeitzel

Teddahlia my husband has Parkinson's. It's a cruel disease that takes away a little more physical and mental ability every day. It absolutely blows my mind that Leroux managed to start, plant, and tend to 2500 seedlings in later stages of PD!
Anyway, I have Clearview Leroux on order and I will look forward to seeing the big purple cactus bloom even more now!

Krista

Teddahlia The bloom in this photo looks like it has three different colors, it’s outstanding. I know there are more varieties that have three, but I can’t think of a lot. Can dahlias have more than three color combinations?

Teddahlia

Dick Parshall took over Gordie Leroux's gene pool. I bet his new one is from Gordie's breeding. I am growing a flower that Gordie used to start his line. Why not go way back and see what happens?

Bessie

These articles(saved months ago) have a fair amount of chemistry references. I like the color chart jpg link. Unfortunately, no reference to white in dahlias.

Breeding for color

https://www.americanscientist.org/article/the-chemistry-of-dahlia-flower-colors
Link to Color chart
https://www.americanscientist.org/sites/americanscientist.org/files/2022-110-3-136-infographic-1700x2238.jpg

Rare color of black dahlias

https://bmcplantbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2229-12-225

Teddahlia

Nice and colorful article. There was another one that is written in scientific language that I waded through a year or so ago. I may get bored in all this rainy weather and read it again. In a way, it is nice to know a lot of the chemical basis for dahlia color. But we we really need more info on the genetics of color. We want to know what to breed together to get the desired color. Why something is a color is one thing but how to breed that color into you flower is another thing altogether.

Krista

Teddahlia Mama and Papa contribute an equal share of the genes.

Are there variables other than the ability to produce seed at all that weigh into which varieties you choose to provide the pollen and which you choose to develop the seed?

Teddahlia

If you know a variety makes no seeds but that it makes pollen(some make no pollen either), you can encourage a bee to use that pollen on your seed maker variety. Bees are like taxi drivers and you just tell them where to go. 😘 Mike Iler mixed non seed makers with his seed makers in his isolation beds. His iso bed was over 100 feet away from his main garden if my memory serves me right.