Yes, you’re right Ted…that’s true about waterlilies not being very vigorous in the past. About 12-13 years ago I grew only waterlilies in one of my rectangles. Not a single plant in that rectangle thrived while the rest in every other rectangle did. I haven’t really favored growing waterlilies since then until this past year. I actually think you may have been the one who clued me in to that back then. I thought something was wrong with the soil or something.
Many of the waterlilies I have grown like to spread and hug the ground in my zone (zone 5). Not HH Lilibet, she was a strong and tall upright grower. I think she is pretty much perfect.
Interesting 2024 white / blush from David Jack at Ferncliff - I ordered it
SteveM
Interesting about Ginger Snap. I grew it as a last minute add last season and it was such a pretty and productive plant. The foliage itself was remarkably attractive and distinctive. The tubers looked good too, so I hope to try it in a couple of spots next year! I love the look of water lily dahlias, but until GS, didn’t love the plants themselves. Thanks for another fascinating discussion!
JessieC Ginger Snap made an interesting cut flower. The color was fantastic and included that "sheen" that made it sparkle. Unfortunately, the blooms bruised easily and each crease in the bruise showed up as a dark crease. It wasn't possible to bunch the blooms without bruising them so I cut them when they were about 1/4 open and let them finish opening at the market. It was/is a great cut dahlia.
SteveM
Exactly right! They were also very pretty to watch unfold. I ended up leaving a lot of them on the plant, and will put them in the “display” area of the garden. But they also made for dynamic arrangements, and that golden color was just lovely.
(Sorry to hijack the “white dahlia” thread into a different color 
)
Spur leaves on stems are very small leaves that appear almost randomly along the stem and sometimes only one or two and sometimes even more. They are single leaves and probably are always less than an inch long and often smaller. They have been "declared" to be a fault by the ADS show flower people who do not like them and when they are on a show bloom judges nearly always say negative things to each other and use that as an excuse to award the ribbon to the other entry. The trait is definitely linked to the "wire" stemmed waterlily dahlias who usually have several of them. By the way, if you remove them with sharp knife they scar is generally quite apparent. For me, the "wire" stemmed dahlias are like a different species of dahlias and are known also for their height and Ridlings Wicked Witch(note we copied that name for one of ours) grew 12 feet tall.
Wayne Holland of Hy dahlias did these tests. I never followed it much at the time and his stuff is no longer on line. The idea is that the alkaline contents of the pigment cells preserves the purple color of anthocyanin. Many or most cells have acid contents and a version of a white dahlia has alkaline cells. I do not know how the alkaline ammonia is used for the test.
@Teddahlia "Spur leaves on stems are very small leaves that appear almost randomly along the stem and sometimes only one or two and sometimes even more. They are single leaves and probably are always less than an inch long and often smaller. They have been "declared" to be a fault by the ADS show flower people who do not like them and when they are on a show bloom judges nearly always say negative things to each other and use that as an excuse to award the ribbon to the other entry. The trait is definitely linked to the "wire" stemmed waterlily dahlias who usually have several of them. By the way, if you remove them with sharp knife they scar is generally quite apparent. For me, the "wire" stemmed dahlias are like a different species of dahlias and are known also for their height and Ridlings Wicked Witch(note we copied that name for one of ours) grew 12 feet tall."
I consider this a very desirable trait and would select for it if I were breeding WLs. The spurs do not detract from the bloom quality or presentation so it is an unfortunate bias by ADS judges. Lately, we have had many cloudy days and, since I am growing under shade cloth, most varieties will get limp, droopy necks because of the low light. Hollyhill Tiger Rose, on the other hand, has strong, wire stems and never droops. And she wears her spurs proudly!
First bloom of Dave's Glacier
Bessie OK! Had some fun...
(Open the image in a new tab to zoom in)
Looks like ammonia will turn the pigment juices yellow orange depending on the degree of yellow base to the pigment. Very light yellow pigment(maybe considerd white?) will result in a pale, pale yellow reaction. Lots of yellow or orange/red pigment results in an orange yellow reaction.
Pink pigment tends to turn blue, but if there's some yellow the result is blue and yellow which will look green.
I believe Wayne Holland was looking for the correct version of white to cross with a red flower to get purple. I believe he may have been looking for white flowers and testing them with ammonia to determine which version of white was in the flower. For some reason he wanted to use a white flower for breeding to get purple. I tend to breed purple flowers to purple flowers to get purple. Lots easier. This was a project he was doing with Wayne Shantz.
It's that time of year when I start thinking of new dahlias to bring into my yard in 2025 for hybridizing. I've been re-reading this thread. I'm really interested in the results of the white dahlias evaluated during the 2023 growing year, and would very much appreciate your input. What white dahlias would you recommend I use for hybridizing, with the goal of being a good cut flowers? This seedling I'd like to use as a seed parent. Seedling 24312 has Bahama Mama is it's recorded seed parent. The plant is vigorous and robust, it has great stems and bloom position, and prolific flowering of 4" blooms. Vase life is only 4 days and the flower form and petal density is not the greatest. When it opens up still on the plant, it has abundant pollen. I'm hopeful that it will set seed
. I should know in a week or two.
Thank you for taking the time to give me advice.
I was talkin to a biochemist(compared to me, just a grad student) yesterday and we discussed the problems in breeding white dahlias. They are white for numerous chemical reasons and if the two flowers you cross are not white for the same reason, few white flowers will result. If the flowers you cross to get seedlings are related to each other and are white you may increase you odds of getting white flowers.
