Bessie OK! Had some fun...
(Open the image in a new tab to zoom in)
Looks like ammonia will turn the pigment juices yellow orange depending on the degree of yellow base to the pigment. Very light yellow pigment(maybe considerd white?) will result in a pale, pale yellow reaction. Lots of yellow or orange/red pigment results in an orange yellow reaction.
Pink pigment tends to turn blue, but if there's some yellow the result is blue and yellow which will look green.
I believe Wayne Holland was looking for the correct version of white to cross with a red flower to get purple. I believe he may have been looking for white flowers and testing them with ammonia to determine which version of white was in the flower. For some reason he wanted to use a white flower for breeding to get purple. I tend to breed purple flowers to purple flowers to get purple. Lots easier. This was a project he was doing with Wayne Shantz.
It's that time of year when I start thinking of new dahlias to bring into my yard in 2025 for hybridizing. I've been re-reading this thread. I'm really interested in the results of the white dahlias evaluated during the 2023 growing year, and would very much appreciate your input. What white dahlias would you recommend I use for hybridizing, with the goal of being a good cut flowers? This seedling I'd like to use as a seed parent. Seedling 24312 has Bahama Mama is it's recorded seed parent. The plant is vigorous and robust, it has great stems and bloom position, and prolific flowering of 4" blooms. Vase life is only 4 days and the flower form and petal density is not the greatest. When it opens up still on the plant, it has abundant pollen. I'm hopeful that it will set seed
. I should know in a week or two.
Thank you for taking the time to give me advice.
I was talkin to a biochemist(compared to me, just a grad student) yesterday and we discussed the problems in breeding white dahlias. They are white for numerous chemical reasons and if the two flowers you cross are not white for the same reason, few white flowers will result. If the flowers you cross to get seedlings are related to each other and are white you may increase you odds of getting white flowers.
Bessie Seedling 24312 has Bahama Mama is it's recorded seed parent.
I had pretty good luck getting white seedlings by crossing seedlings of "Blizzard" with each other. Blizzard doesn't have the best form and occasionally shatters, but it is still the best small, (4") pure-white variety I grow for market. Blizzard outperformed 20th Ave. & Baker Rd. in my field trials (under shade cloth) this summer. (more productive and had stronger plant/stems under shade).
SteveM thank you for that information on Blizzard. Walking my yard today I realized I could really use some shade cloth! The heat just radiates, and it was only in the high 80's. I think I've overlooked the fact that 24312 is surrounded by tall sunflowers that have partially shaded it starting in July as the warmer weather set in. I plan to use Blizzard as the pollen parent in a cross with 24312.
Bessie Walking my yard today I realized I could really use some shade cloth!
Shade cloth is a double-edged sword, some varieties do better and some do worse. Stem strength becomes a priority and is one reason I prefer "Blizzard" over some of the other whites I've tried. Powdery mildew can be more of a challenge under shade cloth. Voles are more of a problem because the shade cloth protects them from hawks and owls.
2024 seedling and it is white and it's seed parent was white. 2.75" in diameter. Bush is about 5 feet tall. If this one makes more seeds than it's pod parent, that would be blessing. Collecting only one or two seeds from one out of five pods(lots of empty pods) is time consuming.
Teddahlia what's the bloom position of this nice white seedling? Please let me know what you think about bloom position(clockface, etc ), and how much it's affected by genetics vs. environmental factors. Am I foolish for using Sweet Nathalie, notorious for some blooms being clockface, as a seed parent? Others are welcome to chime in too on bloom position genetics. Thanks Ted.
I avoid flowers with poor bloom position and seldom see it in our seedlings. Breeding is both deleting bad traits and accumulating good ones. I have few opinions on named varieties used as seed parents as we have used mostly our own flowers in recent years. Odyssey is the one that gave us the best genes and it's genes are in much of our flowers. If I were starting to breed MBs or balls Cornel and it's sports have had good flowers. I wish I knew that years ago but several people tried using it in breeding and got nothing good and it was probably a case of incompatible genetic lines. Snoho balls are good too. It is easier to get good traits from an old time breeder(Snoho-Bill Bonneywell, dec'd who was buddies with Dick Williams of Skipley fame, still alive and very old) . 20th Ave varieties are the new kid on the block and kicking butt. Using cut flowers for breeding is very difficult.
Lady Nathalie (L) and Hollyhill Wedding Day (R), each a few days from maturity. As far as I know, HH Wedding Day is the only pure white with this unique floret shape. Lady Nathalie was a gift tuber(actually, a cutting) from Kevin Larkin (Corralitos Gardens) and has become my "go to" medium-size, pure white, cut variety.
