Virus and Nutritional problems

Bessie · 2023-02-17T00:21:26+00:00

Continuing the conversation about virus, coming from the "Taking Dahlia Cuttings" thread... I found this video a beginner's overview of Dahlia virus. There's...

JessieC

Bessie Not to worry at all Bessie! No offense taken 😊
In fact, you might find this interesting: on another nearby pair of PnC that came from cuttings, I saw similar symptoms. My soil is high in almost everything, per a number of soil tests. I did treat them to a calcium supplement that I heard about on a podcast. Fast forward a few weeks, and here’s the difference in foliage. I picked the blotchy leaf off the lower part of the same plant. It’s got four big fat buds about to open. We’ll see!

ETA: here is the supplement I used
https://shop.fifthseasongardening.com/products/roots-organics-cal-mag-qt?_pos=54&_sid=987b2d489&_ss=r
It provides calcium, magnesium, and sulfur. I remember @Cosey mentioning that I might need to keep an eye on my calcium, even though my soil tests were off the charts in macronutrients. I was listening to a podcast with a soil expert who suggested that calcium could be very helpful for flower growth. I found this one at my local shop and decided to give it a go!

Juliarugula

I’m a little stumped by this foliage. This is my dad’s dahlia, and there are a few plants in the same bed that look like this. I’m thinking not virus, but nutritional? It’s an odd look - almost like snakeskin. Older leaves on the plants look normal.

The only thing I can think of is that I know he added city compost to the bed this spring. Could this be herbicide damage of some sort? The city compost tends to be a pretty hot brew, and I’ve always had great luck with it, but I guess that wouldn’t take care of lingering herbicide…

SteveM

Juliarugula Could this be herbicide damage of some sort?

There's a good chance your instincts are correct. I would check with the city to find out if they use lawn clippings in their compost.The broad leaf herbicides in lawn herbicides can persist for months and are not affected by composting. Also, it is possible the herbicide in the compost will not cause damage while the temperatures are low but when the heat arrives the herbicides can "fume" and cause damage.
I would take a compost sample from the compost surrounding the most symptomatic plants and run the bean test on it to check for herbicides. I would run the bean test on any compost or manure before I added it to my garden.

Cosey

Before I even read your entry I was going to suggest chemical cause. Either residue herbicide or over dosing of fertilizer.

If the compost is the issue then more plants will be affected. If it's an applied chemical situation (like fertilizer) some plants will respond more poorly than others. Often times if over fertilizing is the issue rereading the application directions/dilution rates/application rates is helpful. Over watering and leaching the soil out can save these plants.

Juliarugula

SteveM I’ve never heard of the bean test, but I can figure out what it is - great idea! I’ll put that trick in my back pocket for future use… (and probably present use as well)

Teddahlia

I have heard of the pea test: one pot from the suspected bad soil and the other pot of known good soil usually commercial potting soil. Sprout a few seeds in each pot and compare the seedlings. If foliage is contorted and twisted, the soil is bad. You can use other species of plants for the test and maybe beans work well too but they can take longer to sprout. I first read about the test at the WSU web site many years ago.

calico20hill

Teddahlia It is more comfortable to say "Bean Test" then "Pea Test". But yes, I heard about doing it with pea seeds too. Do they sprout any faster then a bean seed?

Juliarugula

Anyone want to talk me down from pulling this one? It’s a real bummer for me - HH Toni, which I was sooo looking forward to.

Last year I bought a tuber from Heaven on Earth and it was one of those that got swallowed by huge growers on all sides and didn’t make it. So this year I bought 2 tubers from Heaven on Earth and planted them on opposite sides of the garden, and both plants are sluggish and look like zebras. So disappointing - I don’t think I’ve seen any other sellers with this variety.

JessieC

Juliarugula
“Sluggish and look like zebras” is a wonderful image! Alas, sorry for your dilemma and your disappointment 😩
I must admit I’m seeing more “zebras” than I care to admit, but they’re almost all from my own stock, which was carefully procured. I’m not seeing the combination of sluggish and stripey. I’m sure more experienced people will have better advice for you. All I can say is sorry and good luck 😬

Juliarugula

Teddahlia Maybe it will pop up again at Parks someday. I was sort of hoping you’d chime it to tell me it’s a small plant, at least, but it doesn’t sound like it. Too bad.

JessieC I’ve probably lost about 10% this year, which is kind of what I was expecting. Pretty consistent with last year. It seems like this year I had more dud tubers that never sprouted, both in my own stock and in purchased tubers. I set aside replacements to pop in when the inevitable happened, which was a good idea. But next year, I need to plan my replacements better - there’s a few varieties I’m kicking myself for not saving the extra tubers/cuttings.

Teddahlia

Parks Dahlias had 7 foot tall, healthy HH Toni plants several years ago. We have not grown it in over ten years. It was a seedling of Mingus Toni and Mingus Toni is a very nice flower.

JessieC

Juliarugula Me too! I am so glad I figured out cuttings (thanks to the generous people here 😊) It makes it so much easier to pull the plug when you can fill that spot with a healthy plant. I will also plan for more extras next year. They make good gifts.
I’m most confused by the appearance of streaky foliage though. It would be so nice to find a local person who could walk me through what I’m looking at. Reading things on the internet can only get you so far, and then when you read that a staggering number of plants are virus positive, the whole thing seems futile. If my wonky looking ones came from less-experienced growers, I’d find it easier to toss them.
While it’s not super rare, I’m most pleased that I was able to find HH Miss White, and that I was able to make two backup cuttings. One of my HHMW tubers vaporized in the ground, and I didn’t really sweat it. I’ve got three growing now and they all look great!
Good luck!

Teddahlia

Miss White was named after a slot machine in an Indian casino called the Lucky Eagle. I do not gamble except on dahlia seedlings. We were there mostly for the buffet and Margaret would occasionally would play the slots. Miss White was not good machine for pay outs. It was a good name and it did win a medal.

MA_Dahlias

What a fantastically educational thread! I have a few plants that aren't looking their best at the moment and many who are thriving - I suppose I'd be bored if none of them needed attention! With a few I'm trying some different nutritional interventions, to see if it helps, but with this one dahlia, I don't know of anything other than a virus that would cause spotting. I'd truly appreciate the experience of others on this one! THANK YOU!

SteveM

MA_Dahlias Are those bottom leaves?

Juliarugula

MA_Dahlias it’s such a regular pattern - it’s like your plant has measles…

I’m curious about it too.

MA_Dahlias

SteveM Those are mid plant so far... the top leaves are showing fewer spots. This is the plant in question - sorry about the water, we had some good thunderstorms roll through last night!

SteveM

MA_Dahlias I have never had those exact same symptoms so I am just guessing. The spots look too even in spacing and size to be TSWV or DMV. When I see virus chlorosis it is usually (always?) splotchy with no consistent pattern. I have had magnesium deficiency of tomatoes that looked very similar to these but it started on the lowest leaves. Still, my best guess is that it is a nutritional deficiency of something, probably one of the micronutrients. If this were my plant and I had time to experiment, I would drench the soil around the plant with a solution of 1 tablespoon/gal of soluble Miracle Grow (or equivalent soluble fertilizer that included the micros), and repeat in a week. I wouldn't expect the spots to vanish but would hope the new growth did not have the symptoms.
I get a similar strange pattern on the bottom leaves of my Peaches-N-Cream plants when the leaves senesce or if the plant is under-fertilized.

JessieC

SteveM I get a similar strange pattern on the bottom leaves of my Peaches-N-Cream plants when the leaves senesce or if the plant is under-fertilized

Ok. I’ve been wanting to ask this question: is PnC (or any other variety) simply prone to weird looking foliage? I’ve got several PnC plants from varied but reliable sources, and there’s no rhyme or reason to which ones are exhibiting streaky leaf patterns. I tossed one out and put a photo in this thread earlier. Micronutrients seemed to help one, but I’ve got another one that looks vigorous and blotchy. Some are from my own tubers, which originated with a highly reputable source, new 2023 tubers from the same source, cuttings from said tubers, and one extra tuber that came as a bonus from a good (but admittedly not A+++) source. That last one is quite small still, but all the others have exhibited some weird foliage.
One other thing: I saw a photo the other day of a PnC from a nearby flower farm. I can see similar streaks in that plant too. Maybe I’m just deluding myself, but I’m hoping you’ll tell me that it’s just a trait of the plant. I didn’t see it in last year’s PnC plant (I only had one.)
Orange Globe is another one that shows odd foliage for me. It’s very dark green and curly, with some discoloration. I’d say these two lead me to doubt all the plants around them from time to time!
Thanks in advance 🙏🏻
This is the pic I saw the other day:

MA_Dahlias

SteveM That's exactly what I've done so far. Gave them a good dose of Jack's Classic Blossom yesterday, so I'll wait and see how it responds - lots of room for experimenting around here!! I'm trying to figure out the whole virus vs. nutrients issues and how they present themselves. I understand viruses can be "out run" by the plant for a while as they get bigger, so I'm not sure when to decide they are "better" from added fertilizer, or just bigger so better at fending off viral symptoms. Always something to figure out - I wish the viral tests were more affordable!

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