Hybridizing Dahlias

Bessie · 2023-09-14T03:43:02+00:00

Krista to discover if seeds are growing in the seed pod, after there are no remaining anthers on the pod, gently squeeze the pods between your thumb and fing...

calico20hill

Teddahlia I don't just "like" this one...I love it! Would love to grow it!

Bessie

First year seedling, first bloom(about 4"), ~~25-38-02~~ 25-38-01
I agree with @Teddahlia that you can't always tell a lot from first blooms. This color is an amazing soft blush, that screams bridal bouquet to me. It could use more petals, but it's closed center 😲, which is always appreciated on new seedlings.

Bessie

Bessie it's so sad that this seedling, 25-38-01, has lower petals that shatter. I'm wondering if it's just genetic or environmental. It's been moved around the yard, and grows in a 4.5" pot that's sunken in the ground. Anyone know about seedling inheritance of the petal shattering trait?

SteveM

Bessie Anyone know about seedling inheritance of the petal shattering trait?

Some varieties shatter under any condition, some varieties shatter occasionally, and some varieties never shatter under any condition. If I have a new variey that I really, really, really like I will give it a couple of chances to show that it only shatters under certain, rare conditions. Maybe I will plant it one more year and give it better growing conditions. If it shatters the next year I will discontinue it because it is worthless as a cut flower. If it rarely shatters I will have to decide if the lost sales is worth keeping it and remember to not use it for breeding. I have only kept one seedling that "occasionally shatters" and that is because I haven't found a color replacement.

Teddahlia

Shatttering is inherited. There are degrees and the worst are the ones that drop their petals all at once. Ms. Kennedy does that.

Bessie

Teddahlia thank you for sharing your expertise!

Bessie

SteveM thank you for the detailed description of the levels of shatter. And while we're on the subject, I have found Hollyhill Wedding Day does shatter. I've let it pollinate with one of my 2024 seedlings, so whatever seedlings grow from the cross I'll need to screen aggressively for shattering. It might be an interesting test to learn if the shattering trait is dominant. I don't plan to use it for hybridizing going forward.

Teddahlia

Shattering early is indeed a major fault. We eliminated Ms Kennedy from our garden despite the fact her seedlings were excellent. Some shattered but certainly not all. Ms. Kennedy won a huge prize in a recent show and the show growers know how to harvest it early so that it can be judged before shattering. Cut flower people cannot even dream of selling MS. Kennedy. Over the years we have had seedlings that never ever, ever, shattered and the petals remain on the bloom until the stem rots off. Sounds like a good trait doesn't it? The problem is you cannot easily determine how ripe the flower is when you pick it. They do wilt a bit(eventually, a lot) as they get old and that is just as bad as shattering. So you say: "Can I use the non shattering variety for breeding?" The reason it does not shatter is that it has no pollen center and is sterile for both having seeds or pollen. I tried to sell it for a couple of years and I do not think any one bought it. And obviously, we did not use it for breeding. Long gone.

Bessie

Teddahlia your comment about pollen center and abrupt petal dehiscence is thought provoking. I've been noticing one of my seedlings (24522) has a very small pollen center (or none) and almost no pollen. The petals seem to wilt as they mature as opposed to dropping off.
Sometimes on a bloom of other varieties I've pulled out a disk floret(stigma and style with pollen ready to mature) and notice that the petals wilt. Makes me think there's a connection between the pollen center and the disk petals. Something for me to research...

Teddahlia

"disk petals." are perhaps disc florets and are on anemone dahlias. Ray florets are the petals on the double dahlias we breed. I have always been fascinated that the disc petals can be be very large as they are wrapped around the reproductive parts of the flower. One year an "A" sized seedling flower that was a bit open center had disc florets and ray florets. I celebrated but the next year they were gone.

Teddahlia

There has been stuff posted on the color of the reverse of the floret on Facebook. The orchid flowers show the "reverse" of the petal as what you see and the face of the floret is rolled up and hardly visible. So it is rather important that the reverse of the floret have some "nice" color. Here is a black and white picture of a first year seedling that has the "fully double orchid" form. I wish I could say the color on the "reverse" of the florets was attractive on this seedling. It looks better in black and white. I will post the color picture tomorrow after you fall in love with nice form shown in the B&W version.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia that one looks so cool. Have you guys been working with the “fully double orchid” form specifically, or was this one a surprise seedling? I remember you talking about how cool you thought River’s intros were a few years back when they started introducing this form.

This is a particularly compelling black and white photo!

Teddahlia

No breeding going on here. My theory is that the gene to reverse the roll of the petal can just appear at random. That would mean it is a dominant gene probably. Here is the color picture.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia I love it in color too!

calico20hill

Teddahlia I've got one doing the same thing. I think it is a seedling of Hollyhill Black Beauty as the colors are much the same but the petals are doing this inward roll thing. Is it Double Orchette Season just starting?

Teddahlia

Sometimes an open center flower gets
your attention. Should we keep it?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hollyhilldahlias/54777500109/in/dateposted-public/
The Flickr enlarged picture is amazing. Link will take you there, click on it to enlarge.

SteveM

Teddahlia Should we keep it?

Cross it with your anemone an see what kind of creature you can create.

Bessie

Teddahlia Yes, keep it! Maybe cross it with the too many petals waterlily.
SteveM I pollinated Totally Tangerine( sent to me by mistake) with the mostly open centered Hollyhill Creamy(WL) that make tons of pollen. Today I picked a Totally Tangerine seedpod that had 5 seeds that look like they have the potential to germinate.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia is the photo before it in the stream the same waterlily before the center blew? Because the one before it (two blooms) is soooo bright! Wow! 🔥

Teddahlia

I believe this is the first bloom on this 5 foot tall seedling. I showed some people the picture on my cell phone at the club meeting yesterday. It is a really good "show and tell" picture to get conversation going. People love dahlias because of the color and not the form. If dahlias had perfect form and were just shades of gray, they would not appeal nearly everybody(there are some people who worship good form and would be the exception).

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