Breeding: For Color

Krista · 2023-03-29T13:23:18+00:00

Teddahlia (starting a new discussion for this) Thank you for answering all of my questions about Giraffe. Are there other dahlias that have the same lateral...

Krista

Teddahlia Wow, what a beauty!

DarcyD

Teddahlia
Nope!! Never heard of it! 😂

Teddahlia

Shawnee Dream was as good as they get. Still looking for Normandy Promise picture. Found a very bright pink one to post instead.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia ooh - love that one! What’s the story behind CG Paragon?

Teddahlia

CG is Corrolitos Gardens and they stopped selling a few years go. I remember this one was a "fader" and the exhibitor was I believe the late Mike Iler who lived near the cost and flowers did not fade much for him.

katyaker

Normandy Promise from ADS website - https://www.dahlia.org/guide/images/NORMANDY_PROMISE.jpg

Teddahlia

We used Normandy Promise for breeding and Hollyhill Chrystal is a seedling of it. N. Promise is the brightest pink dahlia I have ever seen. I can say that without being challenged because I believe it is no longer available. Just like CG Paragon it had to be shaded to get the neon pink color.

BackyardBouquets_17

I’m a total newbie. The first year growing seedlings and already thinking about collecting seed next yr. I’ve been searching and scouring the internet to try and understand how to breed for specific colors. I know it’s still going to be a guessing game as it could potentially throw out random colors but are there any simple charts or common explanations on what colors could potentially create what color? If that makes sense?
For example I like the ball dahlias and think a ball dahlia with something like KA Mocha Katie coloring would look awesome. ( probably would never get identical but you get the picture) my thing is I’m lost on how to get there and wish I had resources or more info on breeding for specific colors. Any info or resources you can point me to are appreciated. ❤️

Teddahlia

Breeding dahlias for color is akin to an artist who is limited to only a very few tubes of paint. Dahlias have two pigment groups. Tube one is white. Tube two is purple(nobody believes me but it is true) How the hell can you get all the different colors from these two pigments? As it turns out, the white pigment can have versions that include the yellows. So let's add a yellow tube for the yellows. The purple tube has most of it's color changed from purple to red when it is put on the canvas. Under specific conditions it will stay purple. The specific conditions are controlled by a version of the white pigment that has the ability to make the purple remain as purple. Most of the versions of the white pigment make the purple pigment red, but just a few allow it to stay purple. Perhaps we need another tube for the white that allows purple to remain purple. I am going to quit here as you can see that it is almost impossible to control the variables to get certain colors while other colors are very common.
Strategy for breeding the color of dahlias: This is so simple that you may not even believe me. It is the universal rule for breeding dahlias. Control the pollination and cross two dahlias of the same color together and you will get many seedlings in that color. Breed like to like to get like. . You will never get all the seedlings to be the same color but you increase the odds. Can you you use your knowledge to of the chemistry of color to help you in your quest? Yes, for example you could cross a white flower known to produce purple seedlings with either a purple flower or a red flower knowing that it will produce some purple seedlings. What is easier?: breeding like to like and you do not need to know why it works or using your knowledge to produce some colored flowers based on your knowledge of the chemical pigments. Even for the chemist it would always be easier to breed like to like to get like.

Krista

bloomhjelm I wonder if this might be the comment you’re thinking of?

Teddahlia Breeding dahlias for color is akin to an artist who is limited to only a very few tubes of paint. Dahlias have two pigment groups. Tube one is white. Tube two is purple(nobody believes me but it is true) How the hell can you get all the different colors from these two pigments? As it turns out, the white pigment can have versions that include the yellows. So let's add a yellow tube for the yellows. The purple tube has most of it's color changed from purple to red when it is put on the canvas. Under specific conditions it will stay purple. The specific conditions are controlled by a version of the white pigment that has the ability to make the purple remain as purple. Most of the versions of the white pigment make the purple pigment red, but just a few allow it to stay purple. Perhaps we need another tube for the white that allows purple to remain purple. I am going to quit here as you can see that it is almost impossible to control the variables to get certain colors while other colors are very common.
Strategy for breeding the color of dahlias: This is so simple that you may not even believe me. It is the universal rule for breeding dahlias. Control the pollination and cross two dahlias of the same color together and you will get many seedlings in that color. Breed like to like to get like. . You will never get all the seedlings to be the same color but you increase the odds. Can you you use your knowledge to of the chemistry of color to help you in your quest? Yes, for example you could cross a white flower known to produce purple seedlings with either a purple flower or a red flower knowing that it will produce some purple seedlings. What is easier?: breeding like to like and you do not need to know why it works or using your knowledge to produce some colored flowers based on your knowledge of the chemical pigments. Even for the chemist it would always be easier to breed like to like to get like.

SteveM

Nice explanation!

BackyardBouquets_17

Yes it all makes sense and explained well enough . Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. I’ve been going through this site and soaking in a lot of information but this answers a lot of questions I had and clarified my conclusion that the best bet is to breed like to like.
I have grown dahlias for myself and for my cut flower road stand for awhile but this breeding is opening up a whole new exciting side of it for me! Out of everything I grow those are the most looked forward to blooms this season but beings it’s zone 4 it’ll be awhile yet.

Are there sources you can look up to see if a dahlia is a good seed or pollen parent or is that something each person needs to mostly figure out for themselves?

Bessie

BackyardBouquets_17 the information about seed parents is sometimes hard to find, because it's "trade secrets" for the professional hybridizers. The Boley's have done a nice job documenting some seed parents on their website, but unfortunately their website appears to be non-operational.
I found a link I had saved on my tablet, this may work: http://www.birchbaydahlias.com/advanced-d.htm

The Seed Starting thread has some info on seed parents. I added a post last night, and here's the link:
https://forum.dahliaaddict.com/d/58-starting-dahlia-seeds

calico20hill

Birch Bay Dahlia site is working fine right now. I was able to go right to their breeding information.

BackyardBouquets_17

Thank you Bessie! This is just the type of information Ive been looking for.
I did read your post. That was super interesting to me and I want to thank you for being open to sharing it. Its nice to have a bit of an idea on which ones readily set viable seed vs which ones potentially aren’t ideal for a breeding program.

BackyardBouquets_17

And some of it will need to be learned by trial an error but I’m thankful for people on this site willing to share information to a beginner 😀

Teddahlia

Dahlia Breeding on Facebook has over 4,000 members.

BackyardBouquets_17

If I were on Facebook or instagram id totally check sites like that out but since we decided to stay off of them I guess that’s out for me.

Teddahlia

I post most things on Facebook and have never had a negative experience on Facebook. The breeding site was started by person who has a PhD in genetics and the members were over 4500 last time I looked. Lots of information on all subjects related to breeding dahlias. Names of potential seed parents is a subject that few people share and even my wife and I are very reluctant to share something that took us many years to find out by personal experience. . We also use specialized breeding varieties that we never share or sell and are going more and more in that direction. We have bred a seed parent that is a B IC Lavender that produced 122 seeds in one pod. Most of them sprouted too and the seedlings have been good.

calico20hill

That is lovely to hear Ted... I love the incurved cactus ones. particularly the smaller ones for my garden. I got one of those from you this year and am excited to grow it.

Bessie

Picking up the conversation from Dahlia Seedling Pictures 2024

Teddahlia Using the chemical basis for color: F. Copper has a yellow towards orange base pigment that is overlaid with some version of red to give it the so called copper color. Your F. Copper seeding is lavender and some would say light purple. In order to be that color , a flower cannot have the base pigment of F. Copper and it needs to get a different lighter white pigment that allows purple to appear.

I was curious and did a tiny bit of online research. Based on the theory of orange pigment inheritance in dahlias, do the color of the seedlings produced by SB's Fiesta dahlia follow the orange rules you describe? Birch Bay website information:

Another example of an orange seed parent:

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