How to increase Dahlia seed production?

Rahlia · 2024-12-14T13:37:57+00:00

Hi, It is very frustrating when I get 1-2 seeds from a whole crossed plant, the pollinstion is basically using a brush to spread the pollen on the mother's...

Justafewdahlias

Teddahlia I personally liked Ivanetti because it seemed so durable and productive compared to the other plants next to it. I assumed since Cornel makes seeds Ivanetti probably would also, or is this a toss up with sports?

Justafewdahlias

Teddahlia I’m now realizing I should have used open pollination to get more stats on who makes seeds THEN use that info to go into hand crosses…more learning and ideas for me for next year I suppose

Teddahlia

" I assumed since Cornel makes seeds Ivanetti probably would also, or is this a toss up with sports?"
Cornel was a very below average seed maker for me. When we grew Ivanetti, I do not remember getting seeds. but that was 20 years ago. I always personally thought Ivanetti was a great tuber maker but I never liked the maroon color. It is a fact that ball dahlias in general do not make very many seeds. Snoho Doris was used as a seed parent by some people . I cannot think of any ball that make lots of seeds or even an average number of seeds. 20th Ave Old Major is a personal favorite ball and in the three years of trying I got zero seeds. It's breeder says he gets a couple seeds each year. I doubt it.

Bessie

Teddahlia your info gives me breadcrumbs that fuel my hope of what might give me seeds.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia I cannot think of any ball that make lots of seeds or even an average number of seeds

SB’s Ora was a slightly above average seed producer for me. (Haven’t grown any of them out though).

Rahlia

Teddahlia Thanks!

MissyWeitzel

I was able to get a decent number of seeds off both Brown Sugar and Copper Boy this year.

Teddahlia

I was discussing actual ball dahlias and seed production. Miniature ball dahlias make many more seeds for me and the ball seedling I got this year has a miniature ball grandparent and formal decorative parent. I have no problem getting lots of MB seeds every year. Having said that , I only use our own intros for seeds.(three are medal winners and all make seeds ).

Juliarugula

SB Ora is classed as a ball I think, although it’s on the small side, in my garden at least.

Teddahlia

For some reason ball dahlias are very difficult to bred due to their overly large size. Yes, I said they are too big for their britches as they have to be 3.5 inches in diameter and have the rolled up(involute) florets. That trait requires the florets to be very wide so they can roll up and that takes away from their length. A 5 inch diameter ball dahlia is a giant ball. Hilltop Ivan is one that can be that big. It is also pretty much extinct. Senior Ball was another one. The best sort of large ball in my opinion is Snoho Doris.

5 inch Snoho Doris entered by Christy Parks

GoldenTurtle

I found out this year that I am not very good with hand pollination. It's almost impossible to do with two toddlers in tow and a full time job, especially trying to hand pollinate several times in a day in several days. So I'm going to have to try isolation bed or culling dahlias in the main dahlia bed and let the bees do it. Previously in this post, there was mention that the late Mike Iler had an isolation bed was about 100 feet. I've have also read a bed 10 feet away from other dahlias is sufficient. I acknowledge that bee pollination will not be completey reliable when trying to polinate a specific flower to another, but I'm willing to accept that fact. Some seeds from dahlias with the desired traits will be better than no seeds. What is the recommendation on how far the isolation bed should be planted from the main dahlia beds? I'd like to hear your guys experience with this.

SteveM

Bessie I've used this method a few times and it worked pretty well. I didn't know they made tubes with stems, that's good to know!

GoldenTurtle I found out this year that I am not very good with hand pollination

My father bred both singles and doubles. He collected seed from the singles early in the season and then removed all the buds from the singles when the doubles were pollinated. A lot of work, but successful.

Another method I have used is to place a bucket of "pollen" blooms in a bucket and then pulled a few branches of the "mother" blooms down into the middle of the bucket, so they were surrounded by pollen blooms. All ray florets were removed from both. This method seems to give good results but does not offer the 100% guarantee you get with hand pollination or complete isolation.

Teddahlia

"I've have also read a bed 10 feet away from other dahlias is sufficient." How the heck do they know? Did they do a 100 foot spacing and 10 foot spacing and compare results? Or did they just get a few nice seedlings at 10 feet and declare that to be a success? When I talked to the late Gordie Leroux my only time( he died about a year later) he said he removed all flowers from plants that he did not want to cross with his seed parents. Then he picked extra flowers of good ones and placed a "pollen" bouquet near the seed parent plants. If you do not have success hand pollinating, why not use his method? It is probably better than isolation beds.

Bessie

Teddahlia a few years ago, I took a nice pollen parent bloom(growing on the opposite side of the house), that had pollen showing, placed it in a floral water tube, and attached it to the prospective seed parent that had several blooms opening. I just needed to ensure the pollen flower had water refilled in the tube each day. Ted, I'm pretty sure your story of Gordie Leroux's bouquet method was my inspiration.
There's all kinds of floral tubes for sale, but I like the ones that have a stem for easier attachment to a Dahlia branch.

MissyWeitzel

SteveM That's exactly what I did this year. My singles and seedlings were planted away from my main dahlia beds - about 50 to 60 feet away. Then I worried that wasn't far enough so I let my open center dahlias go to seed first. Once those pods closed I started letting specific doubles go to seed. I cut all open center blooms right before they were completely open. I cut everything at least every 2 days anyway, so it wasn't bad to keep a closer eye on my open centers.
Next year I will reverse that and do doubles first since the pods generally take longer to mature.
I do love hearing about how other people do this. Lots of tricks to learn! Those flower pick stakes look cool. I have a rain gauge that is just a glass beaker type jar on a metal stake and that would work great for putting a whole bouquet right by the desired seed parents like Ted described. They make drink holder stakes too. You could have an easily accessible beer some times and a bee bouquet others!

GoldenTurtle

Thanks for these technique tips! I'll have to get more buckets and will try to the flower tube.

Teddahlia

Do not forget the Winkie Dahlia'(Australian) "bee tunnel". He put a plastic film "tunnel' down a row where he had planted flowers he wanted to cross. His theory was that bee would go down the tunnel and and emerge at the other end having gotten pollen along the the way and used it to pollinate his favorite seed parents.
I attended a short talk he did at a show. He was very a successful breeder despite growing dahlias in a
climate that could be compared to Death Valley. His watering methods were legendary. He died a few years ago.

Old picture.

Teddahlia

I recorded Margaret's hand crossed seeds onto a spreadsheet. She does not want details posted but there are a few things I can say:
(1) It was an excellent year for seed production. She set an all time record for number of seeds from one pod and the second place pod would also have set a record.
(2) Her average number of seeds per pod was up.
(3) They were nearly all waterlily crosses.
(4) She set a record for total number of hand crossed seeds
(5) She repeated very many crosses that had produced good seedlings in prior years.
(6) Despite meticulous work, some pods yielded no seeds. Reasons would include genetic incompatibility, fungus infections, weather during the pollinating.
(7) She says that if a person follows the instructions in Kristine Albrecht's book, they should be able to get hand pollinated seeds. Yes, she does some things differently but the overall methods are very similar

bloomhjelm

What type/s was she convinced to hand-cross that were not waterlilies?

Teddahlia

None. She crossed a couple of WLs with colors she wanted.

KitCMC

Teddahlia this made me chuckle.

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