Hybridizing Dahlias

Bessie · 2023-09-14T03:43:02+00:00

Krista to discover if seeds are growing in the seed pod, after there are no remaining anthers on the pod, gently squeeze the pods between your thumb and fing...

Bessie

Second year seedling 24232: the first bloom is looking better than expected! HH Daydream is it's seed parent, and the blooms look very similar.

Teddahlia

I have seen lots of HH Daydream seedling pictures being posted and yours is one of the best.

Bessie

Teddahlia Last year I posted a picture of the 24232 tuber clump:
https://forum.dahliaaddict.com/assets/files/2025-01-18/1737238171-563449-pxl-20250118-220822985.jpg
The 24232 seedling had the advantage of being in the vegetable garden soil in a plastic basket, not in a 1 gallon pot. It's look alike seedling, 24225, your favorite of the two, has not bloomed yet. I've likely planted it in an unfavorable growing condition.

Teddahlia

I have seen lots of HH Daydream seedling pictures being posted and yours is one of the best.

Bessie

I would really appreciate knowing your experience attempting to hybridize( even to tell me I'm wasting my time):
1) use the pollen of of a ball dahlia to pollinate a formal decorative dahlia such that it will make seed that will germinate.
2) use the pollen of an anemone dahlia( such as the mislabeled, "surprise" Totally Tangerine dahlia) to pollinate an open center dahlia? I have an "almost waterlily" that is usually open center that I have thoughts it could possibly accept the pollen of an anemone dahlia.

SteveM

Bessie 1) use the pollen of of a ball dahlia to pollinate a formal decorative dahlia such that it will make seed that will germinate.

I have crossed FD varieties to 20th Ave & Baker Rd. and gotten a few seeds that produced a couple of potentially nice cut varieties. It isn't a cross I would do if I were trying for a show dahlia.

Bessie

SteveM thanks, for that idea. I have two almost fully open 20th Ave. Baker Rd. blooms that I can work with.
Today I ordered some tags for labeling hand crosses! I hope they are useful, since this is a new product I'm trying. I'm gonna try to be disciplined, at least part of the time.

SteveM

Bessie I have two almost fully open 20th Ave. Baker Rd. blooms that I can work with.

This is one of the FD/ID BB X 20th Ave & Baker Rd. seedlings blooming now. The plant has the good height/stems of 20th Ave & Baker Road and the 4" blooms are trying to be ID. If this was a different color it would probably have good potential as a cut variety. At our latitude it is easy to get pollen centers from most Ball dahlias almost any time of the summer.

Teddahlia

1) use the pollen of of a ball dahlia to pollinate a formal decorative dahlia such that it will make seed that will germinate.
Ball and formal decorative dahlias are so closely related that crossing them is not an issue. Full sized ball dahlias for some reason make few seeds . Miniature ball flowers make more seeds. Breeding MBs is relatively easy while the size of ball dahlias makes it much more difficult. I would avoid formal decorative flowers that have pointed petals.
2) use the pollen of an anemone dahlia( such as the mislabeled, "surprise" Totally Tangerine dahlia) to pollinate an open center dahlia? I have an "almost waterlily" that is usually open center that I have thoughts it could possibly accept the pollen of an anemone dahlia.
Waste of time but I have no experience breeding open center dahlias(on purpose as by accident it happens all the time).
When breeding dahlias Dr. Hammett in his breeding seminar said the most important thing is that you must have is specific breeding goals. And he was big on breeding a part(like the shape of a floret) of the flower to be better incrementally until after several years of selecting better formed florets you would have the best formed floret of all. No one that I know breeds using his exact method(at least on purpose). Having said that, "crossing this one to that one" to see what happens is not breeding but just playing a slot machine hoping for a random winner. Cross two flowers that have similar good traits to get a flower with good traits.

SteveM

Teddahlia Having said that, "crossing this one to that one" to see what happens is not breeding but just playing a slot machine hoping for a random winne

That is certainly true if you are breeding for show seedlings but not true if your goal is to create new forms or sizes. Breeding for show is different than breeding for cut, and both are different than breeding for garden display.

Bessie

@Teddahlia

Having said that, "crossing this one to that one" to see what happens is not breeding but just playing a slot machine hoping for a random winner.

I still have a solid goal of hybridizing good flowers for cutting. But, yes, I would be hoping for a random winner... but what I'm really doing is satisfying my curiosity, and "coloring outside the lines". I never play the slot machines in life, because I've had too many math classes that tell me the odds are against me.
In the Dahlia world, think of me as a rebellious "what if I do this" toddler that is occasionally willing to fail and learn by mistakes. It's my idea of fun.

I ask for advice from seasoned pros, so I can set my expectations accordingly. I very much appreciate your words of wisdom and experience!

Teddahlia

We pontificate on the differences between show and cut flowers but they are all the same species and no matter how smart you are about selecting the best parents for show flowers (or cut flowers to some extent) there will be a lots of pretty dahlia seedlings that are not show flowers and many will be good cut flowers and most will be trash. Breeding cut flowers can also yield an occasional wonderful show flower. Dr. Hammett has the PhD and the breeding experience and he is quite probably right about how to go about plant breeding. His point that you need a goal is well taken and even if you are crossing two unimaginably different forms, you have a stated goal of creating something new and different. When your "new and different" seedlings are evaluated the good ones will probably be categorized into some sort of "form" and you will probably have a new goal of breeding more of your new form.

SteveM

Teddahlia I agree, a goal is very important, I just don't agree that "breeding like to like" is necessarily the way to go when breeding cut dahlias. I feel successfully breeding show dahlias is much more difficult than breeding cut dahlias because seeing the small, incremental improvements in a show variety requires many hours of training/judging. The ability to see small changes in form is not important when breeding cut dahlias.

Bessie

I think I found a hybrid cross I'm excited to try...

SteveM

Bessie, since you think KA's Cinder Rose and Sweet Nathalie are very close in color why would you use Cinder Rose instead of Sweet Nathalie?

Bessie

SteveM I'm sure I've already put Sweet Nathalie pollen on every likely dahlia match! I really like it and appreciate it's vigor and glossy green foliage. I don't like how it changes color with the cool vs. hot growing conditions. I like that KA's Cinder Rose has tight petals and the bloom position is better compared to Sweet Nathalie. I agree with MissyWeitzel , in that Sweet Nathalie tends to be clockface. I'm still tying to figure out what causes the clockface to occur( other than the obvious genetic component). My guess at this point is it happens when the plant is stunted in growth due to weather, water, or some environmental condition.

MissyWeitzel

Sweet Nathalie is always clock faced for me. Otherwise a great dahlia. 😆

SteveM

MissyWeitzel Sweet Nathalie is always clock faced for me

Good info! Is it side-facing or down-facing? Side-facing is acceptable for cut but down-facing is not useful for anything. Even side-facing is probably not the genetics to keep around for breeding.

MissyWeitzel

The weather has been crazy this season but what a difference. Hopefully future blooms are less weird.

Bessie

MissyWeitzel it's amazing how the growing environment affects so many aspects of dahlia blooms. I'm slow to give up on new varieties or even seedlings since I never know if I've tortured them to the brink of the current disaster bloom or growth. When I see a dahlia outperform despite the lack of ideal growing conditions, I pay attention. Those are the dahlias that may be resilient to a variety of climates.

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