Hybridizing Dahlias

Bessie · 2023-09-14T03:43:02+00:00

Krista to discover if seeds are growing in the seed pod, after there are no remaining anthers on the pod, gently squeeze the pods between your thumb and fing...

Teddahlia

BackyardBouquets_17

I can’t think of a better place to ask. I know to cross a water lily to a water lily to increase your chances of getting a water lily seedling.

My question is has anyone tried it to see what would happen when you cross a water lily with a lacinated dahlia ( for example say I crossed Hollyhill Serenity with hapet champagne) I’m not in the hybridizing for show dahlias and it most likely will never go beyond my own yard but I have experimenting and “just try it see what happens” running in my blood and this question has been bugging me enough to ask it.

What got me thinking down this line is peonies are among one of my favorite flowers. If you look at most peonies ( there’s exceptions to this) the ends of their petals are not smoothly rounded like the majority of waterlily dahlias out there. The majority of full double peonies have split ruffly looking petals ( a trait some people don’t like in dahlias) I grow and arrange cut flowers so to me perfect form is not a must like it would be for someone breeding a show dahlia.
If a person were to breed a dahlia that cupped like an waterlily and for lack of better words “ looked full and ruffly “ like a peony it would be a hot item amongst cut flowers growers and florists.

Hope it makes sense what I’m asking and feel free to pick this apart as much as you want. 😀 it won’t hurt my feelings to be told how much of a bad or good of idea this would be. My motto is “if you don’t ask you don’t learn”

SteveM

BackyardBouquets_17 what would happen when you cross a water lily with a lacinated dahlia ( for example say I crossed Hollyhill Serenity with hapet champagne)

I think that would be a nifty goal and I don't think it would take too many crosses to accomplish. In addition to Ted's great advice I would also add:

Do more than a cross of just one variety of each type for better assurance that the cross will be compatible and produce viable seeds.
For the WLs I would use varieties bred by established breeders (e.g., Hollyhill). With the Hollyhill WLs much of the packing of desirable genes has already been done. So, you will have a much better chance of getting a WL than if you used a WL with unknown parentage.

Justafewdahlias

BackyardBouquets_17 I love this idea! I also love lookalike imposter flowers! I want dahlias that look like tulips and tulips that look like peonies and roses that look like peonies, etc etc. Since they are not all blooming in the same season it’s nice to have some lookalikes! I think the LC + WL peony look alike goal is awesome and I would loveee for someone to create such a flower!

Laia

BackyardBouquets_17

I like your Goldilocks seedling.

You mention some photos of Rosemary Webb look peony-like, and others don’t. I believe that’s the difference between the incurving/cupping closed at night/low light vs. wide open in the day.

I personally am one who loves the incurved/cup closed at night look (of not only WL’s, but other forms, too.) And thus am a HUGE fan of any WL that tends to cup closed more often/more aggressively, and LOVE that Sandy Boley is going to be breeding more with her Sandia Tulip that stays closed all day.

I have noticed that Lakeview Peach Fuzz & Lakeview Hazy have split tips & curve closed at night, which looks very graceful when they do.

Also, Good Golly Miss Molly has split tips on wide petals (though they are twisty, kind of more like Irish Ruffles). I love the look. I have thought about crossing it with other wide petaled ID’s, because I do love the look of wide petals with a bit of extra flare.

And I have thought about crossing some of the nicest form bigger WL’s with some that have split tips on wider petals & the cupping closed at night trait, if possible. Besides Lakeview Peach Fuzz, Evanah is on my list as a possibility to use as a cross…the aesthetic impression of Evanah to me has been “like a waterlily that’s let its hair down.” Though the splits on Evanah are very mild.
I am tempted to try a big WL crossed with Good Golly Miss Molly, which will likely loose many of the WL traits I love, but I am curious about what the results would look like, as I do love twisty forms quite a bit, too, and I have a hunch that it could result in something I’d love.

Good Golly Miss Molly

Teddahlia

Laciniation is one of those traits that is apparent in degrees according to how many genes you have. One gene a tiny split at the end of the floret. 2 genes a longer split. 5 genes much longer split. A waterlily has very wide flat petals. Any split is noticeable, Most lancinated flowers are cactus flowers with split tips. If you cross one of them with a waterlily you lose the waterlily shaped petals(wide and flat) . So you need to do several generations to get both wide petals and notches. It could be done.

Justafewdahlias

Teddahlia Now looking closer at many LC dahlias I do see how most have cactus form. Hollyhill Pinkie appears to be a good example of keeping flat non cactus type petal shape and with laciniated tips. I haven’t seen it in person, just based off photos of it

BackyardBouquets_17

So if I’m understanding right it would look something like this. Cross waterlily x lacinated if you get something decent in the line your going for seedling x lacinated again or would it be seedling x waterlily ?

Or say you have 2 decent seedlings would you go seedlingxseedling?

Every spare chance I get I’m reading and researching dahlia genes but honestly with 2 small children and one of em high energy there isn’t not many spare moments.

Bessie

BackyardBouquets_17 even if you had more time, there is so little written about the topic of breeding for traits, in my opinion. The best source of info are those growers that have been breeding dahlias for decades, like @Teddahlia and @SteveM .
This year I grew a seedling waterlilly(sadly it died) that if you look closely at the outer petals you'll see slight lascination. I'm with you about wanting a Dahlia (s) that looks like peonies!
Hollyhill Daydream seedling 24201 ( I'm guessing crossed with lancinated Gay Princess which was grown 3' away).

Laia

Bessie Sad this seedling died! It was gorgeous. Thank you for sharing it, and its suspected parentage!

Teddahlia

"Cross waterlily x laciniated if you get something decent in the line your going for seedling x lacinated again or would it be seedling x waterlily ?"
Which trait is harder to breed: wide flat petals or a bit of a split tip? Since big wide petals(waterlily by definition) are difficult to breed and split tips are super easy to breed, keep the seedlings with the wide florets even if they have very slight split tips. Cross them together and some of the seedlings will get double split tips and retain the wide flat petals.

BackyardBouquets_17

Thank you for sharing your wisdom you’ve gained from years of doing what you do! It’s likely obvious I’m super green to hybridizing ( grew dahlias for serveral years just never dipped my toes into the world of growing from seed until last yr) I really appreciate all the folks on here a feel like I gain a lot of insight and most likely save serveral years of mistakes by just lurking in the background but to have hybridizers with years under their belt willing to answer questions or provide some insight on what might happen is something you can’t put a price on 😊

Teddahlia

Justafewdahlias We have not grown HH Pinkie in in over 10 years because it has the split tips and split tips are a major fault in most show dahlias. I have seen pictures of HH pinkie seedlings and believe it makes nice seeds. For us, it was a healthy vigorous tall grower covered in nice flowers.

Justafewdahlias

Teddahlia
I see, after reading the ADS form description that all makes sense. Laying flat with a split and no twisting = no fringed or frilly effect which is the visual effect the laciniated form should have. I think splits on a flat petal looks like a unique border and a cute detail!

Teddahlia

Margaret likes this one. 2022 seedling.

Krista

Teddahlia Ooo what a lovely pink bi-color! I love when you can see the spiral pattern of the ray florets opening too; nice flower and nice photo.

Teddahlia

Dark pink and Lavender are very similar colors . To me this one is lavender but I have not used the color chart to verify.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia I love that one!

Krista

Teddahlia I’m wrong about everything these days 🤣

bloomhjelm

I also love the effect of wide petals and fimbriation or lacination.

BackyardBouquets_17

Down checking tubers today and found this guy I forgot about. A Coseytown Goldilocks seedling from last yr. Slight water lily with crazy petals. Almost didn’t save it but last minute did dig it up.
I might need to see what I can cross this one with while I’m doing other crosses this coming summer to see what would happen on getting closer to that elusive peony dahlia.

I was looking at waterlily dahlias online. Rosemary Webb has the type of tips I sort of have in mind ( but still not quite) and some photos of it look peony like and others not so much. I don’t plan on using it but it’s a small example of what something like that could look like. rea

SteveM

BackyardBouquets_17 I might need to see what I can cross this one with while I’m doing other crosses

I would definitely include it in your breeding program. The twisted, flat form and placement of the florets in this seedling looks much closer to those of a peony than any established show dahlia category.

Justafewdahlias

BackyardBouquets_17 ahhh yes I do see a peony-ish look to this one! I am wondering what type of peony are you looking to recreate? Is there a particular peony category or specific variety in mind you are trying to replicate? There is such a wide range of peonies, I don’t have them memorized but I know they have doubles, bomb type, some type with hybrid in the name, a ton of other descriptions on kinds of peonies. I have heard Kelgi Anne be described as “peony-like”

Bessie

BackyardBouquets_17 It took me a while to find this old post, but I too envision creating a peony shaped dahlia.
https://forum.dahliaaddict.com/d/245-general-dahlia-chat-2024/58

« Previous Page Next Page »