Not a tuber to be found

bloomhjelm

I've seen an increase in photos from many growers of KA's dahlias which haven't produced any tubers in 120+ days.

Obviously these plants have to produce some tubers for some people, or there would be none for sale. And I don't know if this is an example of survivor bias, where we only see KA's with no tubers because people are only looking for (or sharing) KA's with no tubers.

The rumor was going around about tuber suppressing hormones/chemicals being added to SCD or Stonehouse stock, but I believe that would be ridiculous for a seller to do. More likely, these flowers were just bred with little weight put on their consistency as tuber-makers.

What are your thoughts?

Juliarugula

bloomhjelm I bought some KA cuttings from Stonehouse 2 years ago. That year I had a mixed assortment of tuber production that ranged from no tubers to a decent quantity of tubers. I had two cuttings of one variety (Blood Orange) that produced a total of only one teeny tiny tuber the size of my thumbnail. It kept through the winter, grew into a fine plant, which then produced a reasonable normal clump. Any KA that I’ve gotten as a tuber, in fact, has produced a moderate clump of tubers. So I don’t know that it’s the genetics of the varieties.

I personally feel pretty skeptical that a dahlia seller would be underhanded enough to go to the trouble of sabotaging the tuber production of their cuttings on purpose. I figure there’s some other problem we haven’t figured out yet. 🤷‍♀️

Teddahlia

A lot of people are using rooting hormones and we have never used them(my son t he chemist says avoid being exposed to chemicals that say hormone).
Our cuttings produce about 50% the number
of tubers as a tuber grown plant. It would not surprise me if the hormones impact tuber production. HH Art W from way back when. No longer grow it but it was a good one.

Juliarugula

Teddahlia I use rooting hormones on my own cuttings, and have not observed a reduction in number of tubers. If anything, it’s the opposite - my personally grown cuttings tend to produce too many tubers, with the density making it difficult to divide. (A case of too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.) (but also I don’t know if that’s specifically a result of the rooting hormone)

blown_dry

For those folks to say it was SH trying to harm people seems rather hypocritical under the circumstances. It's uncomfortably like to the real witch hunts where someone blames a crop failure on someone they want to harm to come to. What a sad mess. For them to jump to that idea out of all possible reasons on no evidence, I struggle to see it as without malice.

Krista

blown_dry This is my sentiment exactly. I want no part of these types of discussions and have truly found this forum to be a haven for topics truly just dahlias. Thank you for protecting this space; it’s the happiest place to be for folks like me.

Jenny

Krista I agree it’s premature to assume malice as to why this is happening. That said, from a scientific perspective I’d like to know why this happens. Could it be an unintentional consequence of the tissue culture process? It’s an interesting discussion to have and we can all learn together.

MissyWeitzel

I would be really upset if I paid $45 per cutting only to find zero tubers. I've also been on the receiving end of someone complaining about my business online and it's hurtful and could be damaging. This isn't just a handful of loud internet trolls though.
The possible explanation I've heard that seems plausible is SH might use a growth hormone (not rooting) and the lack of tubers is an unintentional byproduct of that. But we'll never know unless Stonehouse addresses it or some growers get mad enough to send their $45 roots in to a pathology lab for testing.
There has to be something going on in my opinion. The absolute worst tuber producer I've taken cuttings of still made a couple tubers.

blown_dry

MissyWeitzel This isn't just a handful of loud internet trolls though.

Yes, I believe the people who say they are having this issue. My problem is the people who are suggesting it was an act of deliberate sabotage. There's no excuse for that except actual evidence when it's something common and where there is not even a known way to force a rooted cutting to make no tubers later on its lifespan when it otherwise would have.

MissyWeitzel

I think my answer is more than a little callous and I don't want to act cold and uncaring. I really do feel terrible for the businesses who were aligned with KA and who were probably blindsided by everything that went down. SH especially is in a really poor position because of actions that were not their own and their business will be majorly affected. I feel really bad for them.
I also believe there's more to the tuber free cuttings situation and I hope we learn the truth so that things can change moving forward and hopefully there will be more transparency for buyers shelling out that kind of money in the future. In a way this all is kind of harmful to any business selling cuttings if the online cuttings bashing continues.

KitCMC

Just out of curiosity, is there such a product that can selectively inhibit tuber cell production without acting on the other cell producing processes in the plant? Whether it’s possible to chemically manipulate a plant to grow roots, stalks, leaves, flowers, and seeds just fine, but not tubers seems unlikely to me.

SteveM

A dahlia plant grown from cuttings almost never produces as many tubers as a plant grown from a tuber. It is not uncommon for a plant grown from a cutting to produce zero tubers. This has nothing to do with hormones being used during propagation.

I've always had good luck with Stonehouse cuttings and they have produced as many tubers as any other cuttings I have grown. If Stonehouse is being slammed by social media I think it is unfortunate. From my experience, they seem to be a business doing things the "right" way.

drewtheflorist

SteveM The UK exhibitors grow almost exclusively from cuttings --- they dig their clumps to start the next year's cuttings.

Teddahlia

When you pay "big money" for a cutting, you can take cutting from the cutting and save it as a pot tuber for "insurance". 5 years ago cuttings were very exotic and not sold in the mail with some exceptions. Now that we have them everywhere, you need to learn how to do them successfully.
HH Violetta

NCDahlia

Maybe the KA varieties just are not that great at tuber making. I remember years back floret had all the "cool / social media coveted" looking flowers but many was terrible tuber makers so always a supply / demand issue.

I had a few cuttings from stone house and that was when they had the virus issue a few years ago I was given a full refund. So not sure its entirely their fault and I believe they revamped a lot of their business.

Any dahlia cutting or tuber that I am paying + $40 on I always try to make my own pot tuber of it, take a cutting from. Nothing is worse than buying a tuber for that much planting it, and losing it to early spring rains or voles.

GoldenTurtle

Last year, I found KA cuttings that were in root riot poorly produced tubers. However this year, cuttings of the same varieties but rooted in vermiculite or soil mix had much better tuber production. I noticed again this year that KA of different varieties rooted in root riot didn't produce much of a tuber. Have anybody noticed a difference in tuber production with root riot vs other medium?

Emilyp

I don't like to say a harsh word about fellow dahlia sellers, so I have to edit my comment. It feels yucky to be negative. I think that everything that has gone down over the last few months has a lot of growers on edge.

Teddahlia

Root Riot may be one to avoid unless it roots any thing in a day or two.

GoldenTurtle

Teddahlia
Bought cuttings are generally grown in root riot now. I'm looking at some of the varieties that were cuttings started in root riot, they don't have the same vigor, and the tuber production is not great either. These include non-KA varieties as well. Maybe next year, I'll have to experiment for comparison.

calico20hill

Teddahlia I have not been a fan of root riot cubes . I am all for the natural ways of doing things. To me that means if I want to grow a cutting I pinch off a piece of a stem and stick it in the dirt beside the mother plant in its pot. I pull off the bottom set of leaves and let it grow. When I plant out I plant those now rooted cuttings in a “community” of that variety. Mostly they grow just fine.

DarcyD

I have mixed feelings on this matter. I’ve been in the trenches with it…as I was one of the admin that actually was deleting the comments about SH using growth inhibitors in the KA friends group last year. BUT, it’s still happening this year to way too many people. It happened to me with my SH cuttings and I blamed myself. It will be interesting to see KA cuttings from SH vs Triple Wren this year. Something is going on and it’s probably something innocent like a pesticide or rooting hormone.

blown_dry

DarcyD No need for mixed feelings. It's totally a thing for cuttings or even sometimes tubers, not to make [more] tubers. I think it's already known that a non-zero number of KA's are divas in the tuber making/keeping department and there could easily be something about a particular production method that makes that worse. It's the jump to it being a conspiracy to do people harm that is really out there and... seems like an effort to do people harm.

Krista

Jenny Oh yes, I’m happily here to learn!

calico20hill I plant those now rooted cuttings in a “community” of that variety.

Love this, Noni! Also, does this mean you leave your cutting to grow outdoors right Nextdoor to the mother plant or do you tease their roots apart and move it farther away?