Hybridizing Dahlias

Bessie · 2023-09-14T03:43:02+00:00

Krista to discover if seeds are growing in the seed pod, after there are no remaining anthers on the pod, gently squeeze the pods between your thumb and fing...

SteveM

I quit hybridizing dahlias about 30 years ago because it took way too much time to evaluate 1000 seedlings every year and progress them on to the third year. It is a full-time job to plant and evaluate 1000 seedlings every year. Last year it occurred to me that it wasn't necessary to grow 1000 seedlings and I could give myself permission to plant only 50 seedlings So I did some hand crosses last year and planted 50 seedlings this year. I had forgotten what a joy it was to walk around with a morning cup of coffee and look at the new seedlings that were blooming. Out of 50 seedlings I ended up saving five or six to grow the second year. Next year maybe I will plant 60 seedlings!

Teddahlia

The question on the table is:
How many seedlings do I need to grow to get
(1) get one nice seedling(2) 5 nice seedlings (3) 25 nice seedlings(4) 100 nice seedlings. ???
When you go into the casino and sit down at the slot machine, they constantly tease you with almost wins. However, you almost never hit the jack pot. When you are breeding dahlias there are lots of "almost wins" and since most of us almost never hit the jack pot and all you get is "almosts" the "almosts" get upgraded by you to "wins" . Yes, no matter how many seedlings you grow you will get some "good ones".
I noticed this as we got to be better breeders. We saved about 10% of the seedlings when were beginner breeders. When we got better, we still saved 10%. And now after several decades of breeding, we still only save about 10%. So if you are like us and and your magic number is 10%, you will have 10% nice seedlings.
As you can tell, I am not saying the 10% you save are "really, really" good seedlings although there may some in there but that you will "like " about 10% of them.
We marked 124 seedlings for retention in 2024 out of about 1100 hopefuls. I can tell you right now that most of the 124 are really not that good despite our initial appraisal. We are just like most people and want to give the ones that could be good a second chance. How many are really, really good ? We will see.
One of the 10%.

Krista

Teddahlia I'm interested that with line-breeding, your percentage of saves hasn't increased one iota since you were beginner breeders. Or ... has your definition of "really, really good" continued to evolve as well?

Emilyp

Teddahlia Wow, now that is a winner. So good!

blown_dry

Teddahlia WOW 😍

SteveM

@"Bessie"# What are you going to do when all of those seeds germinate? I would worry that I would have to sell my home and buy a farm in the country so that I could grow them all. 😊

Bessie

SteveM the horror of too many seeds germinating has crossed my mind. That along with the horror of needing to leave my house and the babies for more than a few days 😳. I was busy tonight with some volunteer stuff, and just got home... OH MY... I just counted the number of seeds I started today... Around 3000! There are 51 varieties, but that includes some seeds from 2023 seedlings.

Am I crazy, yes. Do I know what I'm doing, sometimes. Do I think most of the seed are "blind", and infertile, yes. This year is the BIG test to find out which varieties will make fertile seed. I'll keep everyone posted regarding germination. I want to share as much as I can about the most mysterious subject of which varieties make good seed. 🤗

MissyWeitzel

In 2020 I grew my first dahlia seeds and they were from Floret. I had one I thought was nice but the tubers didn't keep. In 2021 a fellow WMDS member gave me a packet of random seeds from his patch and I grew a dozen out and it was fun but most of the blooms were pretty wonky. In 2022 I grew a few seeds I saved myself but I didn't keep any info on seed parents and didn't have any really nice ones.

Last year was the first year I grew seeds I had planned for prior to collecting, if that makes sense. I planted like forms together and eliminated open center dahlias before open pollination and saved seed parent info. It was SO cool to see the huge difference in quality of seedlings just from taking those steps. It was also really great to sometimes be able to guess exactly where the pollen came from. Unfortunately I had a mishap and killed a bunch of my seedlings I worked harder for, so I only had less than 10 of them to grow out. They were definitely better and I saved 2 but I'm guessing they won't make it to year 3.

I did even more pre planning for collecting seeds last season and set my first preliminary hybridization goal. I'm so looking forward to seeing my 2024 seedlings! I haven't decided how many I'll grow out. Somewhere between 100-200. Hurry up, spring!

Krista

MissyWeitzel I can't wait to see your 2024 seedlings too!

Krista

Cosey your chance to start only happens once. Better get to it.
Teddahlia "The longest journey starts with the first step."
Bessie a fun, exciting activity, with continually learning along the way.

I am so grateful and sparkly-eyed over all of the encouragement! Thank you for sharing wisdom and perspective, I'm feeling very inspired now about maybe for-really saving seed this summer.

Teddahlia

Or ... has your definition of "really, really good" continued to evolve as well? We both became senior judges and we have higher standards nowadays. Yes, our 100 best ones now are better by far than years ago. And since we now know how to control pollination and how to select good seed parents, we have much better seedlings. But 90% still fail to make the grade.

Teddahlia

The essence of dahlia breeding is the seeds. They can be frozen and planted decades in the future. Remember Dick Parshall who is about 78 years old said he is no longer collecting seeds as he has enough frozen seeds for many, many more years. He planted some 20 year old seeds with success. We collect seeds every year and I have frozen some and need to do more. I noticed that the saved frozen seeds may sprout a bit better by the way.
HH Lavender Blu is the IC flower.

Krista

Do the wild species of dahlias grow in regions where their seed goes through stratification naturally in Mexico & Central America? Or is 20 years a bit much for that process to be [add: the piece that is] beneficial. 🤣

Teddahlia

A few years ago there were only 36 species dahlias and the number now might be 40. I believe the botanists enjoy taking field trips to that region and finding new species and collecting plant material including seeds if possible. Species dahlias are so different from our Dahlia variabilis that one could not say. During the genetic presentation at the ADS meeting done by the pHD doing the genome project they determined that most of the species were tetraploid and few or none diploid and none octoploid. They used plant material collected in the 1890s to analyze some of the species.

Krista

Teddahlia I know nothing about plant genetics, apologies in advance, but is it standard for hybridized plant species’ number of chromosome sets to compound when crossed? That’s wild.

MIDahlias

Teddahlia
Over my head 🙂

Teddahlia

Standard implies expected or usual. I do not know how often it happens and in this case it happened many hundreds of years ago. Until recently, they did not know for sure which of the species crossed to create variabilis. Why they are octoploid means very little to me. They are octopoid and we must use breeding methods to deal with it. Before you ask what they are, I will state that effectively breeding octoploid plants is difficult and the tools used for diploid plants are generally not available. And as far as specialized methods to deal with octoploid plants, I am not going to comment at this time except to say that there are no real secrets.

Cosey

You can research the evolution of polyploidy plants to understand how species of different chromosome values will evolve, cross pollinate, and form unique hybrids of different chromosome counts.

The stacking of more chromosomes generally leads to bigger plants and subsequently larger blooms and fruits. In a lab, scientists have made strawberries with a whooping 64 sets of chromosomes! I think they were just seeing if it could be done, not necessarily looking to commercialize this Frankenstein plant.

Krista

Cosey evolution of polyploidy plants

Thank you, wow this is fascinating. I appreciate you giving me some keywords/phrases that’ll boost me in the right direction for a Google wormhole! 64 sets of chromosomes makes my head spin - what the heck did those look like?! I’m going to go find out, thank you!!

Teddahlia

Strawberry breeding is similar to dahlia breeding. However, the breeder has to taste the berries and generally they do not taste good.

Cosey

Krista Make sure you report back! I go on research benders from time to time. Last year I looked more into the development of polyploidy plants and the effects increased chromosomes have on the subsequent hybrids. It's all very fascinating and lots of publicly available information.

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